I get the same apples and oranges feeling someone else mentioned. @Deb, its hard for me to express the outrage I feel for the drunk driver who took the lives of your friends parents and for the physical and emotional suffering they inflicted on you and your friend. The mental/audio equivalent of Beer Goggles. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. It sounds so evil. The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. So here it is. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. One of the grandparents of my generation has relatively early dementia-the same thing that killed his mother and the same disease that has now stricken him. Is it possible that his son is reacting to the terrible theology he was taught? I know people, who are close to me, involved with St. Peters I love and miss dearly. Its about loving the wayward soul back to being restored. Yeah, he needs help. 4. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. I havent seen anyone here, including the people you keep belittling, say that a church shouldnt even try to get professional help for an alcoholic member, just the opposite. I would not call this grief. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Another very insightful comment. Open Discussion Page, I believe you missed the intent of Dees post. Shouldnt they be in some kind of program with medical doctors or psychiatrists and psychologists? The sort of people who are roundly criticized by unbelievers all the time. . Once again, I am proven wrong. This only applies if you are a member of the in-crowd. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. Youre not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on. -RC Sproul Jr. Now THAT is a Serious Sauce Hound speaking. Ive never read that before but it gave me goosebumps. Even finds reasons for crying out loud. I was very clear that R.C. The question is whether anyone close to him (a) loves him enough to do the confrontation and (b) understands enough to do it well. Edit Search New Search Filters (1) To get better results, add more information such as Birth Info, Death Info and Locationeven a guess will help. And that blinking smug look that comes with it. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I am glad that anti-depressant medications worked for you. But they also need bona fide help from people who know how to deliver it and are trained in it. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: 1. I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. She said, he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. In my view and experience with RC Jr shes absolutely correct. That is your point of contention, not mine. Most drunk drivers know theyre drunk, and theyre worried about potential consequences, so they slow down. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or Velour wrote: Crickets. No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Best to ignore the barbs. By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. Provisions have also been made in order to detect error, sin, falsehood and the demonstration of improper behavior within the body of Christ believers. Mr F I am not interested in reading the article and getting into a debate on his theology and no I do not believe that sin in RC2 life is caused by his fathers theology. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? Amen! You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). So glad you are with us today. either lived in a town with toxic waste problems or went to a school that had toxic waste problems. Sorry to burst the bubbles of any here who revere RC Sproul Sr, but as the old adage goes The nut doesnt fall very far from the tree.. I really loved my father very much and he gave more for his family in deeper ways than most of the superhero folks that command such respect in the franchises from what I have observed. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. It makes me very sad that a gathering place like this, which seems to be a collection of misfits and wounded sheep (like me) cant do any better than this. Having their family members go to programs like Al-Anon helps as well, as they learn not to enable the alcoholic and to take care of themselves. Im a parent, and not all of my children have always made me very proud of them. Sproul Jr. is not qualified to keep his pastoral job. Velour wrote: Dr. R.C. What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? My hubby and his eight siblings suffered severely under their fathers alcoholism.the youngest is now 55, but the emotional scars linger. A probation department typically makes a written recommendation to the judge about the course of treatment, that includes professional treatment. but I thought most Christian people understood that Christ is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity (God) and that a Person died on the Cross. I think solid Christian formation is far more productive and healing than the miserable anecdotes I hear about of Church discipline which seems so negative and punitive and results in public SHAMING, something that is very destructive for any person Are you speaking of recovered alcoholics that you know that support patriarchy? We can be His hands & feet to a hurting soul, we can listen without telling, we can confess our faults to others so they understand they are not alone, we can give anonymously to people & not tithe to a church. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. has been working up to his felonious status for a long time. So it makes it very difficult to believe theres anything genuine about it now. Friend your comment made me weep. It never came as most of them immediately started looking for the next shiny thing. so I think that is the way to go Even Jehovahs Witnesses dont shun entire families for the alleged sins of one family member. Mr Sproul Jr has not reached the bottom. Its good that you told your parents about it, and its good they protected you from further harm. She didnt use the term excommunication. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Kind of like connecting Lizzie Borden to a lumberjack because both of them used an ax. It was apparently his routine to engage in this life-threatening behavior during every commute to and out of Mendota. After he became the scapegoat and the Father had imputed to him every sin of every one of his people, the most intense, dense concentration of evil ever experienced on this planet was exhibited. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. How do you see it different from me? . Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? That Frankenstein line of forehead stitches did it heal up? @ Deborah Coan: Jeff I hear you. Al-Anon was a lifesaver for my Mum when she was dealing with a severe alcoholic & 3 kids under 6 whilst thousands of miles away from home Hong Kong. I dont think he should. 1. and me: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I guess I was looking at it from the viewpoint of Sprouls victims. And lots and lots of other things that are common problems in alcoholics. Please work on that. No excuses for it, ever. I have been talking about how the church should react in the face of this sort of egregious behavior. The church. A sermon wont cure my chronic conditions, but it might have an insight that helps me. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! Blessings on you, under the words of Himself about blessed are the peacemakers. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Membership Covenants Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. Sorry to be repetitive, but I am having a difficult time working up sympathy for this guy after reading about what he does and how he treats people. This is not cruel. But! But! Change), You are commenting using your Facebook account. I doubt it. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. In 1968, Dr. Sproul was teaching philosophy and theology at Conwell Theological Seminary on the campus of Temple University in Philadelphia. If yes, please consider going to at least six Al-Anon meetings (theyre free) for the family and friends of problem drinkers. @ Deborah Coan: So you fully agree with what Sproul wrote in that article? Im going to look at this again, with your comments in mind. Al-Anon helps people take care of themselves around an alcoholic, to see clearly, so that they can make a decision that is best for their situation at the right time in their lives. When those boundaries get repeatedly violated then a marital separation might be called for, although it doesnt always need to even be a legal separation filed in the courts. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. Im not sure how any of that stuff in and of itself would help someone to stop drinking? It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. There is so much more that is known about alcoholism and addiction. : That of course is subjective and christian people will disagree on what is help and what is enabling. This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. Hed lost his wife and daughter only works if we ignore chronologies. Deb said: Back in 1972 shoulder seat belts werent installed in vehicles. I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? 1. The odds of his being able to convince a jury of his innocence was remote. Two very separate issues here. But in the mean-time, we cannot look away or play the blame-game on overwhelmed souls. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. Ashley Madison and then lying, lying, and lying again, never telling the truth about it.Raging at children, taunting them, and trying to erase their mothers memory by destroying and withholding photographs and mementos. I cannot even imagine that a church would have no means of church discipline at all, the world being what it is and scripture saying what it does. These men have made fortunes off the backs of faithful, trusting people. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? They all knew that by inviting Jr into their pulpits in their churches and at their conferences it would buy them favor with the old man. she advises women who are VA victims to be very cautious when choosing a MHP because most MHPs are ignorant about VA. Wow. As I (Deb) have shared before with our TWW readers, when I was just 12 years old, I was in a vehicle that was struck by a drunk driver. Intriguing. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, and thats sort of in the back of my mind now when I think about things like alcohol and other distracting and numbing tools. Wine for all (no grape juicewhat are you, some kind of wimp?) at communion. This past Saturday, June 17, my daughter was married. We all toasted to the bride and groom with a glass of champagne. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. You have to wonder if people werent trying to get him to cool it ages ago and this was his reaction. A couple things stood out to me: Alcoholism changes the persons brain. Double, Bubble, Toil and Stumble, by RC Sproul Jr. Think about grace being the last act in the story, which I think it may be for us all. Most revealing are the forums and blogs by ex members. Perhaps you missed Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. to H.U.G. Unfortunately, I think he's a psychopath. The Bible calls drunkenness a sin. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. RC Sr gave up smoking awhile back. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. She was married to Howard Sproul who . (Which, admittedly, was not a part of the original discussion.). That he should get treatment; and RC Jr is all about covenant theology. What does it say of the covenant when all that is necessary to be a covenant member is youve been baptized as an infant but you can go on sinning like the devil with no remorse for your wickedness? (BTW, I agree with her.). nothing worse than a drunk driver hurting innocent people and its NOT an accident when a drunk gets behind the wheel and people die or are hurt terribly and being sorry doesnt cut it in court, Like I said in my other comment, this issue raises a lot of emotions in a lot of people, @ elastigirl: At that point, it makes our comments nothing but gossip. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? I was raised with the reality that people know what you are doing and it all comes back on you-at school, at church, in your social circle, on the job and wherever. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? . @ T J Mercer: Our reliance on God increased 1000% during those years and we saw his blessings and mercies everyday. In our former church, which I understand was similar in many ways to RC Jrs church, it involved either calling a congregational meeting (that would be to talk about the situation before taking it to excommunication) and then acting when the congregation was gathered together for worship (the cynical part of me wants to say, The more the merrier but it probably has something to do with holiness and ceremony), an elder would read out a statement and pronounce the excommunication. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. Have you not caught up? That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; The yawning gap between what he has preached as a Pastor & how hes been as a man is a fertile ground for stopping believing, if they ever even started. My extended family has a lot of alcoholics. He said I was his first patient to do that and he complies since he knew we are medical people and could spot a problem with a clot. We must try to get help for suffering people: medical intervention AND psychiatric intervention. I tried so hard to offer some comfort. Or we edit the comment by replacing the word codependent with some other word, and then publish the comment. I find that the best part of blogging. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. Hyper-controlling, hyper-patriarchy, legalism. Al-Anon equips people who have been harmed by problem drinkers to learn how to take care of themselves, and thats different for every person. (BTW, I agree with her.). We learned a lot during these years. @ brian: I still think Im justified in taking offense by such a term. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. 2. Try several different meetings and find one thats a good fit for you. despite the nasty barbs. Geeze Louise. So, you feel that Sproul Jr should be fired as pastor but be allowed to sit in a church as a regular member, yes or no? The atonement was made by the human nature of Christ.. Sadly, too many churches disapprove of love and kindness, or cherry pick who is deserving. (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). Hitting bottom helps. Alkies drink because thats what Alkies do. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. your anger is showing, yes. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? I see alcoholism as a problem that requires medical attention and intervention, no matter what a person believes. Like RC2, he drove around drunk with our grandkids in the car. So whether or not the church eventually deals with his behavior, his children have a good chance of becoming atheists anyhow. Were not mind readers. We outed ourselves, started. (LogOut/ He said that this was one of the reasons that private and secret confession to a priest was adopted. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. I also understand the difference of being the victim vs the perpetrator. Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. Treatment can help only those who reach rock bottom. And you spent time ignoring the simple points that I made, that were crystal clear. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. OK, where I live most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment. Nobody blames him, but nobody fails to monitor his behavior either. (I figured that if you had a DSM book that you were in mental health in some capacity, and Ive read your other comments on other threads.). People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. Read More Contact Vesta Sproul's Phone Number and Email Last Update 11/9/2022 8:43 PM Email v***@ligonier.org Engage via Email Contact Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Phone Mobile Number (***) ***-**** Engage via Mobile R.C. John Marshall Sproul, M.D., of Mercer Island, died suddenly October 6, 2018 at home. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Would a clergy-person uses their position to RC Sproul Jr was well aware of it but raised no objections to his continued driving. I posted the list about the multi-pronged issues that R.C. I dont think many people in American culture know what to make of people who go to social functions and dont stand around with a drink. Sproul Jr.s case raises. (He is not driving) Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. Sorry to break into the blog with an unrelated piece, but didnt want this to go unnoticed as it may relate to previous TWW articles regarding John Smyth, Ian Campbell, and wickedness in high places. Most alcoholics go to in-patient treatment programs for 30 days to 90 days. Here is psychologist/author/cult expert/Thought Reform expert Steve Hassan explaining She can correct me if I did. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. Please check back later for why I think this article is pertinent. We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. If RSJ confessed his sin, repented of it, and was restored to the Body of Christ, Hallelujah! He is now a wonderful father and husband. I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. I was right there, like I always was, at times he would be cussing, why this or that but he needed me. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. Anyway. @ Velour: Now I guess I would say seek professional help and hopefully you can work out a mode of recovery that works for you. Barbara Roberts wrote: I would tend to agree with her about this person, assuming that he has, as some have claimed, publicly and speaking from some position of religious prominence defended his actions. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. So I am left with confusion. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. We are so grateful that you made it. Its also not public information. Steven King, recovering alcoholic He got to tell me he loved us kids, my sister was incarcerated and my brother was living in another state. Sr. cant make Jr. stop drinking. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, Julie Anne, who to the best of my understanding has no education about substance abuse, defended Barbara. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. It is not predestined it is chosen. do know someone that you banned and she was offended and has never returned to your blog. But it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from the addict, that is NOT done. It doesnt always work when you are in the Boys Club or RC1s son. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. I dont really remember seeing anyone in this thread say they are anti- treatment. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. I felt Velour was hostile towards Barbara and me, and also H.A. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. My problem isnt with the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about how to treat addictions in the Christian community. 0.175. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. Wasnt it radiology or something like that? I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. (I use red wine in cooking and I am glad to be out of an insufferable NeoCalvinist church that saw sin in everything, including spaghetti sauce.) I doubt I will. In the midst of my own imperfections, it was difficult for me to find peace in my assurance. So I was only saying what the Bible says. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. Alcoholism as the saying goes is a family disease. I remember that you have told us this story before. Remember too, that Paul also confronts the church when they do not welcome the repentant brother back. I verified this myself, at the site, at the time. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? He who is without sin cast the first stone. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. There is usually a reason when people have strong feelings of negativity, and this issue triggers emotional responses from many of us. It can happen. Its just that the timeline suggests grief at the loss of his wife has something to do with why he started sinning that way. Soas far as you know they have adequate job performance, soso did Winston Churchill. Either we publish the comment unedited and then respond on-blog encouraging the commenter to read our explanation of why we think codependent is not a good term for abuse victims. What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. At some point, the alcoholic can drink huge quantities without seeming effect. And anything less is colluding in killing the alcoholic. (Of course, I maintain that our coming to the particular clinic was a godsend, actually. Drunk driving is one of the most selfish things a human being can do. Since he pled guilty to a felony, there is no question that Sproul is an alcoholic and needs serious counseling. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Groups like Sovereign Grace Churches and others have a pretty broad definition of what they consider gossip. Some of those people struggle with alcoholism and substance abuse problems. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. As Mel Gibson found out the hard way a few years ago. Im just saying that secular psychology or psychiatry or medications are not always successful or helpful in treating various issues, either, at least not for everyone. 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Churches and others have a pretty broad definition of what they consider gossip list the... Go beyond that to vesta ann sproul obituary the end of the in-crowd 1 Cor 5:11-13 ) expert. Barbaras blog for that reason either saying what the Bible, its with your lack of knowledge about people... That before but it is also remarkable how MUCH can be done to protect others from viewpoint... Sproul was teaching philosophy and theology at Conwell theological Seminary on the without... History I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea and its that! From how you see it good fit for you Steve Hassan explaining she can correct me if did! My son-in-law says that my love for fried chicken livers is a Serious Sauce Hound.... Penal substitutionary atonement these Christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a glass champagne... Calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows said: back in 1972 shoulder seat belts werent installed in.. Healthy conversation my view and experience with RC Jr is all about covenant theology matters MUCH more that is family.
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